4 November 1941

4 November 1941

We are searching data for your request:

Forums and discussions:
Manuals and reference books:
Data from registers:
Wait the end of the search in all databases.
Upon completion, a link will appear to access the found materials.

4 November 1941



Eastern Front

German troops capture Feodosia (Crimea)

4 November 1941 - History

     From the Daily Missouri Republican, St. Louis, May 10, 1853.

     The steamer Alton arrived from St. Joseph yesterday with a very light cargo. Her officers inform us that they were employed at that point three days in ferrying emigrants over the river. During which time they took over 7,563 head of cattle, 382 bead of horses, and 212 wagons. The emigrants had nearly all started for the Plains on Friday last when the boats left St. Joseph. The Alton made a very quick run down-fifty-two hours was her running time from St. Joseph to this city.

     From the Kansas Weekly Tribune, Lawrence, August 17, 1865.

     We were shown some walnut boards of the very best quality we have ever seen, three feet wide. They came from a tree which measured eighteen feet in circumference. It was sawed at Zimmerman's mill on the railroad, ten miles east, and the lumber measured full five thousand feet. This lumber is cheap at fifty dollars per thousand, and at that rate the whole products of this tree would amount to two hundred and fifty dollars. That is the value of the lumber alone. How much cord-wood and veneering the balance of the tree will make has not been estimated. We call that a valuable tree.


     From the Fort Scott Monitor, November 7, 1867.

     Some fifty ladies in the vicinity of Trading Post, Linn county, have adopted short skirts, which fall about to the knee. Their nether extremities are encased in pants of the same material, many of them cut very like the unmentionables of the sterner sex, while some are gathered at the ankle in genuine turkish style.

     From the Abilene Chronicle, November 10, 1870.

     How SAMSO VOTED IN ABILENE.-There was but one darkey vote cast in Abilene, at the recent election, and the foolish "cuss" voted an unscratched democratic ticket. He did it under the plea that he had "promised Massa Kuney dis mornin' dat he vote de demycrat tick sure-and dat he mus' keep de promise." We admire the darkey's pluck in keeping his promise, but he's evidently "raw," and ought to see the inside of a school house for a term or two. This case demonstrates one fact pretty clearly, namely, that if a darkey votes a democratic ticket his vote counts as much as that of a white man voting the same, or any other ticket) It's wonderful, but it's true.


     From the Ellsworth Reporter, December 21, 1871.

     Last fall during the shipping season, three steers were found with horns of such enormous length that they could not get into a car, with a five-foot door, 'til after five inches was sawed off of each horn.

     From the Seneca Weekly Courier, October 11, 1872.

     Armstrong's surveying party, which left Centralia last summer, have finished their work, and are coming home. They had a good time. They saw lots of wild homes, some of which were very nice. A Leavenworth man offered $1,000 for one if it could be delivered there. The Indians gathered around them near the last, and gave them five "sleeps" to get through and leave, or off would come their scalps and they showed them how it was done! But the surveyors succeeded in getting ten "sleeps," and by working late and early got done, and crossed the Arkansas river September 28. Part came home by rail, and some overland with teams.

     From the Junction City Union, August 16, 1873.

     There was a big trouble at Hays the other day, caused by a locomotive trying to go into John Robinson's show without paying. The forward section of the train went too slow, and the second section too fast, the consequence was a collision, which waked up the largest and most varied collection of animals ever shown under fifteen tents, and gathered from all parts of Asia, Africa, Europe, and Billings county, to an unprecedented extent. Several cars were jammed up, and it looked at one time as if Robinson would have enough tiger steaks and monkey cutlets to last him all summer. The gorilla was heard to remark that he was mighty glad he had left off "showing," and gone to driving a team this season. Fortunately neither man nor beast was injured. The precise cause of the accident is not known. Some say one of the engineers had gazed too long at the "one-fifth of a mile" of serpents, but this is contradicted.


     The first term of the district court began on the 13th day of June. It was held in the attic of a livery stable, nearly opposite the Empire House. Hon. W. R. Brown, of the 9th district, which included Sedgwick county, was the judge. The other officers present were W. N. Walker, sheriff, F. J. Fulton, county attorney, and C. S. Roe, deputy clerk. The attorneys of the Wichita bar present, besides Fulton, were Reuben Riggs, P. T. Weeks and H. C. Slues. The attorneys from a distance present, were D. C. Hackett, Esq., of Emporia,


and W. P. Campbell, of El Dorado. The court room was provided with one chair which was occupied by his honor the judge. The table for the accommodation of the lawyers consisted of two goods boxes set "end for end." The seats for the bar consisted of a two by six cottonwood scantling resting at each end on cracker boxes, and placed at a convenient distance from the table, and along which ranged the lawyers. Behind the boxes sat the judge in his solitary chair with big right heel resting gracefully over big left knee, his right elbow resting upon the arm of the chair, and his chin firmly planted in his right hand, and his left band in big pants pocket. The seats for the bystanders consisted of the same material and pattern as that for the bar, and ranged around the wall. The trial docket consisted of a single sheet of foolscap paper, and the bar docket and the journal of the same. The cases at issue were three: one a murder case, one a state case against . . . Alexander Jester, charged with an assault with intent to kill, and the other a divorce case. The divorce case was tried, witnesses examined and a decree for the plaintiff, which was the husband. It was developed on the trial that the defendant in her playful mood had kicked the plaintiff out of bed and compelled him to sleep on the floor, and as they lived in a dugout, this was adjudged a sufficient "ground" to justify a divorce. The case of murder was taken, by change of venue, to Butler county. In the assault case the defendant interposed a motion to "squash" the information, which was done. It is a curious fact that no record of the proceedings of that court was made, and not even the scratch of a pen remains to tell the fact of the granting of that divorce.

     The boys must be getting hard up for seeing girls when they will go two miles to an emigrant camp to see one, as some of the boys did here last Sunday.

     From the Dodge City Times, November 29, 1879.

The "Indian racket," once a favorite sport in Dodge City, was indulged in on Monday last. A party of three citizens leisurely took a ride over the hills in search of antelope, as it was stated to the young man who was to be made the victim of the joke. The antelope hunting party discussed the probability of Indian wars and redskins generally, and all at once ran across five persons dressed in Indian costumes and war paint, who gave the antelope hunters a chase for about two miles, until within a half a mile of town, the deception being uncovered by a proceeding most "fowl." A number of citizens had gathered on boot hill to witness the Indians drive in the antelope hunters, but the latter discovered the deception before they reached the city limits. This game has been played successfully many times before. The practice had been to give the "Indian racket" to a conceited or cheeky person, and subjecting him to this scare would take the "starch out of him." In his humiliation and feelings of disgrace the victim of the joke would take the first train out of Dodge. But the old practices in Dodge are fast fading away.


     From the Phillips County Herald, Phillipsburg, March 11, 1880.

     Geo. W. Stinson was suddenly shut down on last week. He was arguing a point of law with much earnestness before Esq. McCormick when Mr. Lowe, the county clerk, rushed in in great haste, exclaiming: "Mack, your office is on fire." Stinson finished his sentence as be followed the court out at the door. Six years ago he says he was suddenly interrupted in his argument by a herd of buffalo rushing into town.

     On Monday a jack rabbit hailing from Iowa and going west to escape the drought, passed up Main street with all the dogs in town after him. He happened to pass by the place where city election was being held and in less than three shakes of a dead lamb's tail the judges and clerks of election and candidates for mayor had joined in the chase. It is needless to add that the jack made a better run than some of the candidates.

     From the Seneca Weekly Courier, September 17, 1880.

     A gentleman from out west named Gregory . . . tells some queer works by the negro colony in Graham county. There are 800 in the colony, and all are doing well. One negro has a cow with which he broke and improved twelve acres of prairie and cultivated eight acres of corn his wife drives the cow and keeps the flies off. Another one spaded a four-foot hedge row around 160 acme of land.

     From the Norton County People, Norton, September 23, 1880.

     Peter Smoker, who resides one mile east of the Catholic church, near Almelo, has the right kind of grit for this country. His wheat being so short that it could not be cradled, he harvested three acres by cutting it with a butcher knife.

     From The Buckner Independent, Jetmore, February 18, 1881.

     One of Lillard Sanders' bones was drifted up against the roof of his stable, inside, on Monday last. The snow drifted in behind the animal and was packed down under its feet as fast as it came in, until the animal was jammed up against the roof. Lillard procured a shovel and worked faithfully until he rescued the horse.



     From The Globe Live Stock Journal, Dodge City, February 23, 1886.

     The buffalo that runs about town is accustomed to the music of the Cowboy band it's Western in appearance and does not interfere with the peace and happiness of the buffalo, but there are some things that the buffalo won't stand, and among them is a strange lot of men blowing horns marching through the streets, headed by a drum major dressed in red trimmings and a woolly hat. Yesterday the buffalo observed the Simon Comedy Company's Hussar band parading the streets and took exceptions, and with bead down and tail up charged that band. The music ceased with the first bellow of that wild animal, and the band done some excellent running. It was the worst broke up parade you ever saw. The buffalo took possession of the street, while the band roosted on fences, porches and small shanties.


     From the Ford County Republican, Dodge City, June 8, 1887.

     The city council have shut off the soda fountains and peanut stands on Sunday, but the whisky joints go unmolested. There is a belief that this action was taken to relieve the police from watching the soda stands so they could give their exclusive attention to the joints. We can now look for some decisive action. The joints must go.


     I am writing in my far western home, the one I love best. Let me describe it to you. It is what we call in Morton county a dug-out, Ours is dug four feet down, and has a frame part about five feet high on top of the ground. It is 12 x 20 inside, with a white-washed ceiling and a canvas partition. The door, a "shoot" as we call it out west, is in the east end. There is a whole window in the north side, a half window in the west, and a whole window and two half windows in the south. The last three are filled with house plants-they do splendidly in a dug-out. I have a canary bird to sing to me a pet skunk, a dog and a cat. I was raised in the city never saw a cow milked until I was past sixteen. It is hard work to come west to make a home. Few have the vim and back-bone to stay long enough to prove up their land under the homestead law. I don't want to brag, but we are going to try to be among the few. I'll tell you how we manage: There are four of us. My husband and two little boys (most too small to be of much use, but a great comfort) and myself comprise our family. This year everything was a failure in this county. Everybody left that could, but we have a few


cattle and enough corn stalks to keep them alive till grass comes. I said "we must stick to the land, old boy, just as long as we can raise the roughness to winter on." Some mornings there would be fourteen wagons going east, but they are not all gone, for we are here yet. Last spring everything was fine good prospects for plenty in the fall but the hot winds came and the rain did not. Out of the eighty acres of spring crops we planted we got nothing but corn stalks, not an ear of corn or a kernel for the seed. We may be thankful for the stalks, as some did not even get stalks. We are 47 miles from the railroad and the only way to get a living is to freight. It takes four days to go to the railroad and back with a load. My man has gone for a load now. While he is gone I take care of thirteen head of cattle, two pigs, one colt, and milk four cows, do my house work, make lace and crazy patch. This morning I sawed a new stove-pipe hole through the roof and put up a tin to run the pipe out through. The boys are at school. I sleep with a double-barreled shot-gun loaded in the closet and a revolver handy. I hear some one say, "Of course, she's afraid of those horrid cowboys." No, that is not what I'm afraid of the cowboy is a gentleman if you treat him as such you will never have a better friend. It is the out-law that people fear "out west." The outlaw will dress much like the cowboy, and an inexperienced person will take him for one, but there is a vast difference. We are near the "Strip," or "No Man's Land," as it is called here. This "No Man's Land" is a place without government. Everyone does as he pleases, so of course it is the abode of criminals, who break out once in a while and make a raid through the country. Stealing mules was their last meanness. In this country a man's team is his living, and anyone stealing it takes the bread and butter out of his little children's mouths, making them as well as their parents suffer. We have a good span of mules and sometime I'm afraid they will come to steal them. If they should not find the mules they might try to carry us off. In that case, they would strike a Tartar, someone would get hurt. My nearest neighbor is one mile northeast. Our nearest town is Richfield. The people east are sending aid to Morton county, and it needs it bad. There are a great many people here that can't get away, and can't make a living here, for there is nothing to do. Fortunately we have not had to be helped yet, but I don't know how long we can keep up. It is hard work, hard work, I tell you, and little pay. We have already had a bitter touch of winter. It began by raining, and rained two weeks steady. Then the snow came and the wind with it, and for four days and nights kept snowing and blowing. We were literally snowed under. Through it all the stock bad to be looked after and run under shelter. When they get out in a storm they drift with the wind, and get lost, often killed. Times are hard, but I am generous and when you come "out west" just stay awhile at our dug-out.

     You shall have pancakes and meat grease for breakfast-maybe a little coffee. Light bread for dinner, and mush and milk for supper the year round, with occasionally a young jack-rabbit fried with some milk gravy. . . . P. E. T.

Axis merchants lost on the North Africa Route – 1941-1943

The most helpful Lorenzo Colombo, owner of the excellent Con la pelle appesa a un chiodo blog has taken time during the lockdown to type up the list. He summed up as “sunk” a few ships that were actually run aground and considered total losses: Sebastiano Venier (Jason) , Regulus , Vettor Pisani , Napoli , etc. These were lost to all effects and purposes as well as if they had been sunk. The list does not include warships and ships sunk in port for whatever reason.

The list also does not include naval transport vessels such as German F-lighters (see this link ) or minor vessels such as Motoveliere , small sailing cargo vessels which were heavily used in coastal traffic in particular.

SS Oriani, lost to Blenheim bombers of No.105 Squadron from Malta, 11 September 1941.

See this link .

Losses by Year

The total of 230 vessels lost is given below. The list will make it possible to compare claims by e.g. Malta-based aircraft against actual losses, and should therefore help researchers.

I am grateful for Lorenzo’s permission to repost it here with some minor formatting.

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Nov 2013, 00:13

Did the British know that the cluster of transport was a prepared trench line/with dug-in antitank guns and lorry-mounted guns behind that or not?

I'm not interested in the recce being carried out or not I asked a simple question. Did they know or not?

The account says no. If as you say the account is wrong, then kindly provide evidence that they DID know that the cluster of transport WAS a prepared trench line with dug-in antitank guns and a pair of lorry-mounted guns immedaitely behind it. Because you haven't yet. Nor does the other thread you recommended reading.

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by fredleander » 11 Nov 2013, 01:12

David W wrote: Re the 2Pdr as cited in the "Crusader" above. I'm not sure that any A.P ammunition was available at that time, wasn't it still only solid shot?

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by Attrition » 11 Nov 2013, 01:37

The Italian losses are a tad high but in the ball park. The British losses are not, maybe a typo and they meant to write 52 In any case, this is not about whether it's a fiasco or not, at least not for me. It's more an embarassment, since for all these losses there was really very little to show. 22 Armoured Brigade had another 3 days to go before it ceased being a fighting force.

It's primarily a great example that is indicative of a mentality issue, a command issue, and a structural issue. 160 tanks supported by a battery of the RHA, and 90 or so motorised infantrymen. A Brigade CO who's idea of a recce is to send a cruiser regiment off into the blue when he has the single most experience recce unit in the British army under his command. An infantry coy commander who has to wander around the battlefield offering help, only to be turned down. An artillery battery fighting its own battle in isolation. All to end with the belief by the CO that he had won a splendid victory.

Here's a virtual Cappucino.

Couldn't it be novices en debut, rather than evidence of a structural malaise? I don't suppose anyone has done a Zetterling and ferreted out the operational states of the tank units involved in Crusader have they?

For me it comes down to a view (admittedly a priori) that these things are mundane and can mostly be explained by friction and the fog of war. If both sides were equivalent then results would turn on quite small differences - flat wireless batteries for example.

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by Urmel » 11 Nov 2013, 09:48

That's a big 'if' Here's another question to the previous one (by the way, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on that): when in the period did a British armoured division manage to put together a combined arms show, fully integrating the full strength of its available armour with the support weapons in order to achieve a specific objective? I am not aware they ever did. The best I can find are Brigade or regiment-level actions, inevitably controlled by an infantry unit in a set-piece attack, and mostly carried out with Matildas or Valentines. 1 and 7 Armoured never seem to have managed that. Yet 15 and 21 Panzer did.

Now coming to think of it, this is very similar to the Red Army of the period, that found control of tanks in large units impossible to achieve, so they simply downsized to a level where they could competently exert control and essentially enslaved the tanks to the infantry.

The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by Attrition » 11 Nov 2013, 10:47

I'd like to see a comparison of the daily operational states of the British-Axis armoured forces, to get an idea of what was available, rather than doubtful numbers of losses and questions about how permanent they were, as it seems a more reliable indicator of potential. I spend more time studying the Great War these days and the structural constraints on movement versus static warfare, were enough to obstruct British, French and German attempts to attack 1915-1917, since staying put gave an automatic advantage to the defender, which was of more significance than quantity. It seems as though all-arms co-operation is easier in defence and that it's a big multiplier.

Having had a brief look at Crusader again, it seems that the side which was dug in (as far as you could dig in there) had a tactical advantage, except for some well-known (costly) instances of the attacking side overrunning the opposition, in a context of the British having the strategic initiative (Gazala seems to be a mirror-image). It seems to me that there wasn't a great difference in the equipment available, that many of the small variations cancelled the others out (mechanically dodgy British tanks but more of them, so a dynamic equilibrium of broken down and operational tanks put them on a numerical par with a smaller number of German-Italian tanks, not as frequently out of action due to defects).

Perhaps you're right that nonce leadership was of more significance than the fog of war, in determining the fate of British armoured units but I'd like to know if German-Italian units made the same decisions as the most fallible British ones, as well as the more succesful British units. If no German-Italian tank unit made frontal attacks on prepared infantry-artillery positions during Crusader, that would (for me) be a convincing argument that they were tactically more proficient. If some of the British units never did it, that would tend to make me wonder if it was local ineptitude but if all sides did it on occasion, it's hard to put it all down to the British being rubbish and the Germans not.

There's another school of thought here that such practices by the British, were a rational response to the circumstances of tactical situation, equipment characteristics, friction, when in doubt doing something rather than nothing (except for Pienaar of course) and orders based on inadequate information etc. I wouldn't rule that out either, since we can't write off all British armoured unit commanders as equally stupid, inexperienced, poorly-trained and questionably-motivated. I don't know if a British armoured division did an all-arms gig but I don't know if they were trying to either that's why I tend to discount the "doctrine" point of view, as an anachronistic and dogmatic projection. You never know, it might turn out to be that the British were too ambitious and when they changed to using less-sophisticated German methods, managed to implement them better. or perhaps not.O)

Re: 22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by Urmel » 11 Nov 2013, 11:42

I think that's a very generous view to take.

Cases in point for successful all-arms co-operation (led by the infantry).

1) Breakout of Tobruk (70 Division, 32 Army Tank Brigade - let's ignore what happened to 1 R.T.R.)
2) Initial phase of the attack on the ridgeline at Sidi Rezegh (organised by 7 Support Group, carried out by 2 K.R.R.C. and 6 R.T.R.)
3) Attack on Sidi Omar (4 Indian Division, 1 regiments of 1 Army Tank Brigade)
4) Night attack on Ed Duda (6 New Zealand Brigade, 1 regiment of 1 Army Tank Brigade)
5) Attack on Bardia (2 South African Division, 1 regiment of 1 Army Tank Brigade)

1, 3, and 5 were successful attacks on long-prepared well dug-in positions (in the case of Tobruk and Sidi Omar major strongpoints built up since May 41, mined, wired, well reconnoitered, and in Bardia the Italian fortress belt covering the town), which somewhat counters your point on the defense having the advantage.

And that's just CRUSADER, you get other good examples during COMPASS.

So it was done. Just not by the cruisers (with the exception of 6 R.T.R.), and never organised or led by the RAC.

The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

Recent Tales

[Welland Tribune November 4, 1941]

Salem, Nov 4-Salem United church service was conducted on Sunday Nov 2 at 11 o’clock. The pastor, Rev James Hampson continued his series of sermons on the Lord’s Prayer, his address being entitled “Thy Kingdom Come.”

Sunday school next Sunday will be at 10 o’clock church at 7.30

Mrs Amos Robbins and Mervin visited with Mr and Mrs Kenneth Lane at St Catharines on Thursday.

On Nov 16, Educational Sunday, Professor Kent of the University of Toronto will be the speaker at Fenwick Continuation school at 2.30 p.m.

The Salem association will hold their November meeting at Fenwick parsonage on Nov 12, This will be the annual W.M.S. thankoffering, Mrs Leo Michener will be guest speaker.

Miss Margaret Strawn of the Niagara Falls General hospital spent Wednesday with her parents.

Mr and Mrs C. Menel and Mr and Mrs R.L. Vannatter of Crystal Beach were supper guests of the latter’s parents Mr and Mrs L. Vannatter and family.

Mr and Mrs Wm Miller of Welland spent the weekend with Mrs V.A. Carr

Hallowe’en Social
Salem W.A. held their Hallowe’en social at the home of Mr and Mrs Lee Traver and Mr and Mrs Jacob Traver on Thursday evening. The rooms were attractively decorated with orange and black streamers, cats, witches and pumpkins. Rev James Hampson, James Lowe and George Kelts acted as judges for the grand march, and awarded prizes for costumes as follows” Best dressed lady. June Strawn, as Japanese lady best dressed man, E. Milligan best comic, Gavin Henderson best couple Mrs Basil Misener and Mrs Marshall Beamer, as bride and groom best dressed children, Venita and Jacqueline Gent.

A short program was presented. Mrs Charles Bailey and daughter, Mrs Basil Misener sang,”In an old Dutch garden.” Mrs Marshall Beamer gave a reading and Miss Margaret Tuck offered a piano solo.
Mrs Basil Misener also sang, “Thank You America.” Rev James Hampson led the community singing. Refreshments were served by the ladies.

The Real Reason Thanksgiving Is on the Fourth Thursday of November

Here's why we eat turkey on a different day every year.


Christmas falls on Dec. 25, Valentine's Day is celebrated Feb. 14, Halloween is always Oct. 31—and yet, somehow, the date we celebrate Thanksgiving moves around each and every year. It's strange, not to mention inconvenient. But have you ever wondered why Thanksgiving is celebrated on the fourth Thursday in November? Thankfully, we have an explanation. Read on to find out the history, and for more fun facts about this beloved holiday, find out The Most Hated Thanksgiving Dish, According to a New Survey.

As it turns out, this piece of Thanksgiving history dates all the way back to Franklin D. Roosevelt. While Abraham Lincoln gave the holiday a semi-defined date when he declared the last Thursday in November to be the official date of Thanksgiving observation during his 1863 proclamation, things became complicated when, in both 1933 and 1939, November ended up having not four weeks, but five.

What could possibly be the problem with moving Thanksgiving back a week every few years? Well, as the Library of Congress explains, business owners feared that the further Thanksgiving was pushed, the less time (and therefore money) people would spend doing their Christmas shopping.

In a letter addressed to FDR postmarked Oct. 2, 1933, the Downtown Association of Los Angeles expressed these concerns. "Thanksgiving, this year, according to the usual custom, would fall upon November 30th, the last Thursday in November, which would leave but twenty shopping days before Christmas," they noted. "It is an established fact that Christmas buying begins vigorously every year in the retail stores the day following Thanksgiving and that the Thanksgiving to Christmas period is the busiest retail period of the whole year."

It appears that Roosevelt took the concerns of his constituents seriously. In 1939, the president issued a proclamation moving the holiday to the second-to-last Thursday in November. Several states refused to acknowledge this change, though, and so in 1941, the Senate moved to officially establish the holiday on the fourth Thursday of the month. Obviously this doesn't solve the Christmas shopping problem every year: This year, for example, Thanksgiving falls on the late date of Nov. 26.

The Senate resolution was signed into law by Roosevelt on Dec. 26, 1941, and the fourth Thursday in November has been the day we celebrate Thanksgiving ever since! And for more fun facts about Turkey Day, here are 30 Thanksgiving Facts to Share With Your Family.

22nd Armoured Brigade losses on 19 November 1941

Post by Andreas » 11 Feb 2007, 20:00

Does anyone have the exact losses of the 22nd AB in its attack on the Ariete position at Bir el Gobi? I have seen figures of total-write offs range from 26 to 50, and I would also be interested in personnel losses. Breakdown by type of loss would also be helpful, i.e. total-write off/damaged, WIA/KIA/MIA.

I have found some info on 2nd RGH, who appear to have lost 30 tanks and 50 personnel, 22 of whom were MIA, 19 WIA, 10 KIA.

Post by Andy H » 13 Feb 2007, 06:41

You've most likely read these figures, but just in case you haven't and for others:-

The following is from 'The Sidi Rezeg Battles 1941' by Agar-Hamilton & Turner (part of the Union at War Series) and published by Oxford UP

From Page 138
"22nd Armoured claimed, in addition to the capture of prisoners, the destruction of 'about 45 Italian tanks', but, in a message that night, stated that 50% of its own tanks had been lost and reinforcements were needed. Interpreted precisley, the signal would mean that the Brigade had lost 82 tanks, but the official Italian History clims the destruction of no more than 50, with 6 Officers and 31OR's as prisoners. General Norries stated in January 1953 that, when visting Bir el Gubi not long after, he estimated the number of British tanks remaining on the battlefield at under 20. A South African report the day after the action states that their 1st Brigade counted 10. The probability is that the Brigade was reckoning among its losses the total number of its tanks-the notoriously unreliable Crusaders-which had broken down from all causes during the previous 2days"

Playfair in Vol III of the official British history of the campaign in the Med, gives a figure of 25 tanks lost, whilst this figure is also quoted in Walkers Iron Hulls Iron Hearts (Pg 84), he also eludes to a further 10 damaged. However he then states that this combined figure is on the low side, and goes with the 50 claim of the Italian official history.

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2007, 08:32

This is from 'Carpiquet Bound' a privately published account of 4th CLY in WW2.

The 22nd Armoured Brigade had moved up by train to the open desert area south of Mersa Matruh at the end of October 1941 where 'shakedown' exercises continued until 16th November when Brigadier Scott-Cockbum summoned his Commanding Officers to receive orders for the advance into Libya on 18th November. The "Dogs of War" were about to be unleashed.
On the night of 17th/18th as a kind of Wagnerian prelude, a storm of tropical proportions broke at the precise moment these orders were being relayed to Troop Leaders by their respective Squadron Leaders. However, by 0900 hrs on 18th November when the advance began the weather had cleared.
The Brigade advanced through the previously created gaps in the frontier wire, 2nd RGH in the centre with 4th CLVto the left and 3rd CLY to the right. By the end of the day they had reached a position some 20 miles south-east of Bir el Gubi. The next morning 19th November, 4th CLY had 'A' Squadron in the lead with 'B' Squadron and 'C' Squadron echeloned back to left and right respectively. On 'C' Squadron's right was 'G' Squadron of 2nd RGH. The approach march of someeighty miles had taken its toll of the Regiment's Crusaders, due in part to inherent weaknesses in their design, but also to the inexcusable failure of the manufacturers to make various essential modifications when asked for well before we left England. So no Squadron was at full strength at this crucial moment - 'C' Squadron for example went into battle with only eleven tanks.
It was known that Bir el Gubi was an enemy strong point and that the Italian Ariete Division was in the vicinity. Wisdom passed down to us from Brigade Intelligence was that the Italian M13 tank would present us with no difficulties, nor would the German Mk.11 and 111 tanks. As for the German MkJV there were only twenty of those in North Africa'. We almost felt sorry for the enemy, but the rude awakening was not far off. Reconnaissance had failed to spot that the concentration of 'soft' vehicles that could be seen on the horizon were in fact well dug in and disguised anti-tank defences plus some similarly entrenched M.13 tanks.

4 November 1941 - History

Origins of Fourth Thursday of November as Thanksgiving Day



Why is Thanksgiving Day officially observed on the fourth Thursday of November?

Though the United States' thanksgiving celebration on the fourth Thursday of November began with the United States Congressional declaration of 1941 establishing that weekday as the legal holiday of Thanksgiving Day, earlier United States Presidential Proclamations called for the last Thursday of November to be celebrated as Thanksgiving. Those Presidential Proclamations, in turn, built upon an American Colonial tradition--predating the formation of the United States-- establishing a Thursday in November as Thanksgiving Day. And the Thanksgiving Day Proclamations issued by American Colonial Governor Jonathan Belcher (1682-1757) played an important role in the origin of "November Thanksgiving Thursday."

This is a little-known history not mentioned by other articles, which, after discussing the "first" Thanksgiving, typically begin their list of Thanksgiving Day proclamations with the one issued in 1789 by United States President George Washington naming November 26 as Thanksgiving Day. Next mentioned is often United States President Abraham Lincoln's Proclamation of 1863, which declared that the last Thursday of November should be celebrated as a day of thanksgiving. Succeeding U. S. Presidents followed Lincoln's lead, and this began the annual practice of U. S. Presidential proclamations calling on the people to celebrate Thanksgiving holiday on the last Thursday of November. Then, in 1941, the United States Congress declared that in the years thereafter, the national legal holiday of Thanksgiving Day would be on November's fourth Thursday.

The Colonial tradition most often discussed is that of the "First Thanksgiving" in New England celebrated by the settlers of the Plymouth Colony (commonly considered to be in Fall 1621). According to some researchers, Plymouth's first documented Thanksgiving Day was the day of thanksgiving observed in 1623--but this thanksgiving celebration was in Summer (probably July). Some researchers consider the "first" Thanksgiving proclamation to be the one issued by the Charlestown, Massachusetts council for a day of thanksgiving in 1676--but again, a summer day was selected: June 29.

In 1721, Governor Gurdon Saltonstall of the Connecticut Colony (formerly, the home colony of Governor Jonathan Belcher's mother Sarah Gilbert Belcher) issued a Thanksgiving Proclamation naming November 8 as a thanksgiving day--but that day was a Wednesday. Some descriptions of Thanksgiving briefly touch upon American Colonial history when they discuss Plymouth Governor William Bradford's Thanksgiving Days in December 1621 and Summer 1623 and then move on to U. S. President George Washington's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation naming November 26, 1789.

Less well known is that celebration of Thanksgiving in November didn't begin with George Washington. There were earlier November Thanksgiving Day proclamations issued by Colonial governors in the American colonies. And among the most important were those issued by Colonial Governor Jonathan Belcher.

Perhaps U. S. President George Washington got his November 26 date by following the lead of someone else. Let's follow the trail backward to reconstruct the origins of "November Thanksgiving Thursday".

About seven years prior to Washington's 1789 proclamation, the United States Continental Congress' Thanksgiving Proclamation urged the newly-formed American states to observe Thursday, November 28, 1782 as a Thanksgiving Day. The Congress' Proclamation was signed by the President of the Continental Congress, John Hanson (1721-1783), and the Secretary of the Continental Congress, Charles Thomson (1729-1824), the co-designer of the Great Seal of the United States and a man who might have had a link to American Colonial Governor Jonathan Belcher. (For a discussion of how Governor Belcher's coat of arms apparently became the template for the Great Seal of the United States and Thomson's role in this, see The Great Seal of the United States and the Belcher Coat of Arms.)

Interestingly, Hanson and Thomson were in power at the time the Great Seal of the United States (especially its Coat of Arms portion) was designed on June 19, 1782 (the final design seems to have been come up with overnight under the supervision of Charles Thomson) and adopted by the Continental Congress (of which Hanson was the President and Thomson was the Secretary) on June 20, 1782. (The Congress had turned the work of finishing the Great Seal (U. S. Coat of Arms) over to Secretary Thomson on June 13, who, as the Great Seal and Belcher Coat of Arms article explains, probably was linked to Governor Belcher through Belcher's acquaintance with Benjamin Franklin (member of the first committee to design the U. S. Seal). Since Governor Belcher also had a link to Elias Boudinot (member of the third (final) committee to design the U. S. Seal--the committee that turned the work of designing it over to Barton, who was later supervised by Secretary Thomson), the design of the Coat of Arms of the United States (displayed on the breast of the eagle as part of the Great Seal of the United States) had ties to Governor Belcher from the beginning to the end of the seal-designing process. (For further information, read the article The Great Seal of the United States and the Belcher Coat of Arms.)

(Interestingly, on September 16, 1782, President of Continental Congress Hanson was the first to use the new Great Seal of the United States, which had been entrusted to the custody of Secretary Thomson. In 1789, Thomson personally delivered the Seal to the new President of the United States, George Washington, when Thomson resigned his post as the only Secretary of the Continental Congress (1774-1789)).

There is another interesting connection associated with a Thanksgiving Proclamation issued in 1774 (the year Thomson became Secretary of the Continental Congress) at the dawn of the American Revolution (though this proclamation, issued by a legislature instead of a governor, called for a Thursday in December). The Massachusetts Provincial Congress proclaimed December 15, 1774, to be a Day of Public Thanksgiving throughout Massachusetts. This resolution was written by a committee of three headed by Governor Belcher's friend, John Winthrop (1714-1779), a professor of mathematics and natural philosophy at Harvard College. (It was Governor Belcher who originally recommended John Winthrop to Benjamin Franklin and that's how Franklin and Winthrop struck up their acquaintance. Professor Winthrop's father, Judge Adam Winthrop, was one of Governor Belcher's special friends.) The signer of the Proclamation was the President of the Provincial Congress, John Hancock, a good friend of William Cooper's son, famed Revolutionary minister Samuel Cooper (1725-1783), who ghost-wrote some of Hancock's articles for the press. (Cooper also was a good friend of Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, two of the three members of the first committee for designing the Great Seal of the United States.) The two Coopers were also Governor Belcher's friends not only did the governor commend the ability of Samuel Cooper, but also Governor Belcher specifically selected William Cooper to write and deliver a significant election day sermon in 1740 that set the stage for the U. S. Constitution's First Amendment religion clauses.)

Though the Winthrop Proclamation of 1774 specified Thursday as Thanksgiving Day, it named a day in December. Hanson and Thomson's Proclamation of 1782 specified Thursday, November 28, and Washington's Proclamation of 1789 specified Thursday, November 26.

Maybe Hanson-Thomson and Washington were inspired by the November Thursday Thanksgiving dates established in 1730 and 1749 by Colonial Governor Jonathan Belcher.

Could the fact that Washington's date of November 26 was a Thursday have had anything to do with Thursday being later selected as a Thanksgiving date by President Abraham Lincoln (one of our greatest U. S. Presidents)? (Though in the same year Washington issued his Thanksgiving proclamation, a November Thursday was selected as a Thanksgiving date by the Episcopal Church, this Thursday was the first Thursday in November. In contrast, President Lincoln selected the last Thursday in November--a date closer to Governor Belcher's November 23, 1749 Hanson-Thomson's November 28, 1782, and President Washington's November 26, 1789 dates.)

Governor Belcher's first Thanksgiving proclamation that established a Thursday in November as the Thanksgiving Day date was his Proclamation for Day of Thanksgiving printed in the November 2, 1730 issue of The New England Weekly Journal, clearly specifying that "THURSDAY the TWELFTH of NOVEMBER next" was to be "a day of Public THANKSGIVING throughout this Province." This Thanksgiving Proclamation specifically mentioned offering up prayer to God for "granting us a plentiful HARVEST", among other enumerated blessings. Thus, Thursday, November 12, 1730 was Governor Jonathan Belcher's First Thanksgiving Proclamation. It specifically mentioned a Thursday in November.

The 1730 Thanksgiving Day Proclamation was issued at the beginning of Jonathan Belcher's governorship of the colonies of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, which lasted from 1730 to 1741. As previously mentioned, Governor Belcher issued at least another Thanksgiving Day Proclamation in 1749, when he was governor of the colony of New Jersey. (Though he was officially chosen to be governor of New Jersey in 1746, he was on a trip to England at the time, and he didn't get to land on American shores again until 1747--hence the confusion that sometimes occurs about the beginning date of his New Jersey governorship. Since he was actually commissioned in 1746, however, the proper official beginning date for his New Jersey governorship is 1746. He died Governor of New Jersey in 1757.)

Governor Belcher's 1749 Thanksgiving Day Proclamation established Thursday, November 23 as Thanksgiving Day--just five days shy of Hanson-Thomson's Thursday, November 28 and three days shy of President George Washington's Thursday, November 26 Thanksgiving dates in 1782 and 1789, respectively. Could Hanson-Thomson and Washington have been following Governor Belcher's lead?

Elias Boudinot (1740-1821), member of the final (third) committee to design the Great Seal of the United States, lived across the street from the Governor Belcher Mansion in Elizabethtown, New Jersey. Elias' brother, Elisha, married Catherine ("Kate") Smith, the daughter of Governor Belcher's good friend William Peartree Smith (the wedding was held in the Governor Belcher Mansion). It was Elias Boudinot who "proposed a resolution asking President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation" (quoting from the account of the Proclamation's history given by United States Supreme Court Justice (later Chief Justice) William Rehnquist in his dissent in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985)). Washington's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation of 1789 mirrored Governor Belcher's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation of 1749.

Once again, Elias Boudinot was involved. He was a member of the committee that turned the design of the Great Seal of the United States over to William Barton (which in turn allowed Hanson to turn it over to Thomson supervising Barton), it was Hanson and Thomson who signed the Thanksgiving Proclamation in 1782, and it was Boudinot who specifically came up with the idea for a resolution requesting George Washington to issue his Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789.

As with the Great Seal of the United States, there were links to Governor Belcher from beginning to end of the finalization of the "November Thanksgiving Thursday" date.

To read Governor Belcher's 1730 "Thursday in November" Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, click here.

A draft text (with spelling modernized) of Governor Belcher's 1749 "Thursday in November" Thanksgiving Day Proclamation is given below:

By His Excellency Jonathan Belcher Esqr. Captain General and Governor in Chief in and over His Majesty's Province of New Jersey and Territories thereon depending in America, Chancellor and Vice Admiral in the same & etc.

A Proclamation for a public Thanksgiving taking into consideration the manifold blessings of Heaven to a sinful and unworthy people, in particular that it hath pleased Almighty God in much mercy to preserve the life of our most Gracious King and the rest of the Royal family, and to bless His Majesty's Councils and arms, by restoring a general peace among all the nations engaged in the late war. To continue our invaluable privileges both civil and sacred and that it hath pleased a Gracious God in many respects to smile on this Province, and not to punish us as our iniquities have deserved, to favor us with such a plentiful supply of rain after a sore distressing drought, and to grant the smiles of Providence upon the former and latter harvest, filling our hearts with food and gladness which unmerited instances of the Divine Goodness call aloud for our public, humble and most grateful acknowledgments to the God of all our mercies.

I have therefore thought fit with the advice of His Majesty's Council to appoint and I do hereby appoint Thursday the twenty third Day of November next to be religiously observed as a Day of Public thanksgiving and praise to the great name of God our most gracious and bountiful benefactor, hereby exhorting both ministers and people to join in a public and serious manner in offering up their devout and thankful acknowledgments to the God of all our mercies and at same time to offer up their humble and hearty supplications at the Throne of Grace for the advancement of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ in the world and that his blessed Gospel may run and be glorified among all nations and in particular among the Original Natives of this land and for all in authority over us, particularly that the best of blessings may descend on our Gracious Sovereign King George, the Prince and Princess of Wales, The Duke, the Princesses the Royal Issue, and on every branch of this illustrious family that the Protestant Succession may abide before God forever, that this Province may ever be remembered of God for good, that He would mercifully heal our divisions, restore peace and tranquility, humble us for our sins, prevent the judgments we deserve, that He would incline us to lead quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honesty under the government placed over us, that He would graciously prevent the growth of sin and impiety, revive pure and undefiled religion and make us a people zealous of good works, and all servile labor is hereby strictly forbidden on said day.

Given under my hand this fourteenth day of October Anno Dom 1749.

By His Excellency's Command.

"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26 th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

"And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us and, generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best."

The Creole Case (1841)

The Creole Case was the result of an American slave revolt in November 1841 on board the Creole, a ship involved in the United States coastwise slave trade. As a consequence of the revolt, 128 enslaved people won their freedom in the Bahamas, then a British possession. Because of the number of people eventually freed, the Creole mutiny was the most successful slave revolt in US history.

In the fall of 1841, the brig Creole, which was owned by the Johnson and Eperson Company of Richmond, Virginia, transported 135 slaves from Richmond for sale in New Orleans, Louisiana. The Creole had left Richmond with 103 slaves and picked up another 32 in Hampton Roads, Virginia. Most of the slaves were owned by Johnson and Eperson, but 26 were owned by Thomas McCargo, a slave trader who was one of the Creole passengers. The ship also carried tobacco a crew of ten the captain’s wife, daughter, and niece four passengers, including slave traders and eight slaves of the traders.

Madison Washington, an enslaved man who escaped to Canada in 1840 but was captured and sold when he returned to Virginia in search of his wife Susan, was among those being shipped to New Orleans. On November 7, 1841, Washington and eighteen other male slaves rebelled, overwhelming the crew and killing John R. Hewell, one of the slave traders. The ship’s captain, Robert Ensor, along with several crew members, was wounded but survived. One of the slaves was badly wounded and later died.

The rebels took overseer William Merritt at his word that he would navigate for them. They first demanded that the ship be taken to Liberia. When Merritt told them that the voyage was impossible because of the shortage of food or water, another rebel, Ben Blacksmen, said they should be taken to the British West Indies, because he knew the slaves from the Hermosa had gained their freedom the previous year under a similar circumstance. On November 9, 1841, the Creole reached Nassau where it first was boarded by the harbor pilot and his crew, all local black Bahamians. They told the American slaves that under British law they were free and then advised them to go ashore at once.

As Captain Ensor was badly wounded, the Bahamian quarantine officer took First Mate Zephaniah Gifford to inform the American consul of the events. At the consul’s request, the British governor of the Bahamas ordered a guard to board the Creole to prevent the escape of the men implicated in Hewell’s death.

The British took Washington and eighteen conspirators into custody under charges of mutiny, while the rest of the enslaved were allowed to live as free people including some who remained in the Bahamas and others who sailed to Jamaica. Five people, which included three women, a girl, and a boy, decided to stay aboard the Creole and sailed with the ship to New Orleans, returning to slavery. On April 16, 1842, the Admiralty Court in Nassau ordered the surviving seventeen mutineers to be released and freed including Washington. In total, 128 enslaved people gained their freedom, which made the Creole mutiny the most successful slave revolt in US history.



Bergman, Andrew. We're in the Money: Depression America and Its Films. New York: New York University Press, 1971.

Bird, Caroline. The Invisible Scar. New York: David McKay Company, Inc., 1966.

Britten, Loretta, and Sarah Brash, eds. Hard Times: The 30s. Alexandria, VA: Time-Life Books, 1998.

Cott, Nancy F., ed. No Small Courage: A History of Women in the United States. New York: Oxford University Press, 2000.

Federal Writers Project. These Are Our Lives. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1939.

Hewes, Joseph M., and Elizabeth I. Nybakken, eds. American Families: A Research Guide and Historical Handbook. Westport, CN: Greenwood Press, 1991.

McElvaine, Robert S. Down & Out in the Great Depression: Letters from the "Forgotten Man." Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1983.

Phillips, Cabell. From the Crash to the Blitz: 1929–39. New York: The Macmillan Company, 1969.

Thacker, Emily. Recipes & Remembrances of the Great Depression. Canton, OH: Tresco Publishers, 1993.

Van Amber, Rita, ed. Stories and Recipes of the Great Depression of the 1930's. Neenah, WI: Van Amber Publishers, 1993.

Washburne, Carolyn Kott. America in the 20th Century, 1930–39. North Bellmore, NY: Marshall Cavendish Corp., 1995.

Watkins, T.H. The Hungry Years: A Narrative History of the Great Depression in America. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 1999.

Further Reading

Bondi, Victor, ed. American Decades: 1930–39. Detroit, MI: Gale Research, Inc., 1995.

Britten, Loretta, and Paul Mathless, eds. The Jazz Age: The 20s. Alexandria, VA: Time-Life Books, 1998.

Calabria, Frank M. Dance of the Sleepwalkers: The Dance Marathon Fad. Bowling Green, OH: Bowling Green State University Popular Press, 1993.

Danzer, Gerald A., J. Jorge Klor de Alva, Louis E. Wilson, and Nancy Woloch. The Americans: Reconstruction Through the 20th Century. Boston: McDougal Littell, 1999.

McCoy, Horace. They Shoot Horses, Don't They? New York: Avon Books, 1935.

McDonnell, Janet. America in the 20th Century, 1920–29. North Bellmore, NY: Marshall Cavendish Corp., 1995.

Peduzzi, Kelli. America in the 20th Century, 1940–49. North Bellmore, NY: Marshall Cavendish Corp., 1995.

Rogers, Agnes. I Remember Distinctly: A Family Album of the American People 1918–41. New York: Harper & Brothers Publishers, 1947.

Winslow, Susan. Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? America From the Wall Street Crash to Pearl Harbor, An Illustrated Documentary. New York: Paddington Press, LTD, 1976.